About Neuro Linguistic Programming, NLP and NLP Connections

Let's start at the beginning - how did you first discover NLP?

It was back when I was a political speechwriter. I was interested in how the formless comes into form; how politicians create their ideas and communicate them. A couple of people mentioned Neuro Linguistic Programming to me and then a third person mentioned it too. One of the things that most intrigues me is how people can describe the same thing in different ways, and how different descriptions get different responses. That's really important in political communication and it showed up here too. The third time I heard about Neuro Linguistic Programming it was a description that grabbed me. So Neuro Linguistic Programming became one of the avenues I started to explore, trying to understand how we think and how our thoughts create our experience.

Actually, I already knew something about NLP because I'd done a basic training with Paul McKenna back in 1997. Paul was just starting to teach NLP at that time and it was a great experience for me. We skimmed over some of the material but what I remember from Paul was an intense attitude that anything is possible, and curiosity can be a powerful catalyst for success. I took that into the first business I set up, running web servers and designing websites. It was only when I sold that business and I was looking for new ideas that I got back into exploring NLP. I was looking for something different at that time, without any idea what shape it would take, and that's when I fell into NLP with Richard Bandler. That's when NLP really started for me, around 2005.

How was your first experience of Richard Bandler?

Oh those were dreamy and magical days. There were about 40 of us on the first training but it felt like Richard was talking direct to me. We were at Centrepoint in London but it felt like the centre of the universe. I'd never had experiences like I had during those first five days. So I began that process that many of us get into: I signed up for the next training... and the next.

Richard's stories took me on adventures around the world and I followed him gleefully. I wasn't sure why. After a while I didn't feel in control any more but somehow it felt like the right thing to do. Several years later, I woke up on a beach in Mexico and Richard was talking about the structure of sympathetic magic. By then, I was working with him, organising a few of his training events and retreats. The world came back into focus and I looked out to sea. He'd taught me some of the mysteries behind his work but I realised the last few years of my life had been a blur. I'd gained skills but lost myself. I was doing Richard's work, not mine. That's when I thanked Richard and moved on.

Did you find yourself?

Yeah, I was right back where I'd started. I love that line from TS Elliot: "We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time".

The clearer I get about myself, the more I realise how much I learnt during that time with Richard.

What would you say about Richard Bandler now?

I'd say he's probably the most misunderstood person I know, and I've misunderstood him more than most. Nothing I say will do justice to the fondness I have for him or the admiration I have for his work.

What do you think about NLP now?

I'm finding it really useful to separate out Neuro Linguistic Programming and NLP. For me, Neuro Linguistic Programming is fundamentally about modelling; it's what the Meta team started to do in the early 1970s. If I want to do something the way you do it, I can explore your way and essentially co-re-create 'me' with that ability. I find that pretty awesome and the embedded skills that are pre-requisites for modelling have also been important for me.

Modern NLP seems different to me. My experience of most NLP trainings these days is that modelling is kept behind the scenes and what we get taught are the models that other people have already produced. These trainings promise to change your life and people go along because they want to become more confident, more charismatic, more influential, more motivated, and so on. So these trainings may be about applying some models that were produced using Neuro Linguistic Programming, but they aren't about Neuro Linguistic Programming. I like James Tsakalos's way of explaining this. James is a great trainer from Melbourne, Australia. He points out that when you look outside on a windy day and there are trees swaying in the wind, you don't actually see the wind - you just see trees moving. This is also the case with NLP. What people typically see are the results of the process of modelling, not the modelling itself.

If what you want is to be more confident, for example, NLP may be very appealing. But remember that you're learning to experience someone else's version of confidence, and you're not learning much about yourself or what's true for you. In what way are you similar or different to this other person whose strategies you're now going to use? Do you like that person? Are they happy and grounded in wellbeing? Do you know? Do you even know who they are?

It's almost like you're being given an unknown drug to fix the symptom, the symptom you've come to think of as your problem, but people rarely explore what's behind them thinking they have a problem. The culture of modern NLP is focussed on quick and easy change, fast inductions and faster results. I used to wonder why they were all in such a hurry but then I realised it's because they have another room of students to teach tomorrow. The market sets the pace and NLP is far more profitable than Neuro Linguistic Programming. That's why I think people end up doing one course after another, getting one fix after another. In my experience, it's a treadmill that doesn't stop until you jump off. Neuro Linguistic Programming is about freedom. NLP actually keeps you stuck.

Other than Richard Bandler and Paul McKenna, who else have you trained with?

I wanted to get a broader perspective so I trained with John Grinder as well as Richard, and several of the original team too - people like Robert Dilts, Stephen Gilligan and Frank Pucelik. I think Eric Robbie is a remarkable teacher. Eric had the John La Valle role before John did - he travelled with Richard, co-taught programs and lived a wild life on the road. That's when Richard was younger, of course. Eric has an incredible mind and he's the best Neuro Linguistic Programmer I know. I learnt a lot from him, not just about the field but about honour. He's a very decent man who's given a huge amount to the NLP community and I admire him very much. Gabriel Guerrero is another great teacher. He's another one who cuts through the hype and teaches in a very genuine way. I love being around people who are actually living their models, as well as teaching them to others.

There are too many other people to mention everyone but Philip Farber's work on Meta Magick stands out. Drs Ron and Edie Perry have used Neuro Linguistic Programming to model various bodywork techniques and create Patterns of Physical Transformation - an extraordinary system. I've been lucky to hang out with interesting people like Stephen Woolston and Xavier Pirla too - they're both really smart guys and offer thorough trainings without the hype. Michael Carroll has created a wonderful centre at the NLP Academy in Croydon. Owen Fitzpatrick also stands out as a bright star.

What did you find most useful from your training?

For me it was a deeper realisation that I create my own life, moment by moment. I already knew that as an intellectual idea but intellectual ideas aren't worth very much. Exploring Neuro Linguistic Programming was one of the ways it became my lived experience and that created some big shifts in my life. I can get very abstract at times and NLP helped me to venture out of my head and into my body. I also really appreciate what Richard calls the attitude of NLP - the set of beliefs that emphasise curiosity over caution and tenacity over timidness. Through learning about the structure of beliefs, I also came to understand my own beliefs better. Realising how I create beliefs through thought, my illusions, I became much more comfortable with the unknown.

What about unconscious installation and nested loops?

I spent years learning that stuff and I got pretty good at it. But these days it would take an extraordinary context for me to use those kind of skills. I don't think I know better than you how you should think. I'm happy to explore with you as a friend and I'll always try to explain myself as clearly as I can, but I'm not going to engineer my thoughts into your head as if my thoughts are better than yours. Other people have their own way. Nancy Kline asks "how far can you go in your own good thinking before you need mine? and how much further? and how much further?". I love that. Nancy is so respectful and appreciative of other people's thinking that her presence itself is transformative. That's a difficult one to explain and it's something to experience rather than talk about. But I think it is a good contrast to what I see in the field of NLP, where trainers are so often put on pedestals and I've seen people tremble when they're talking to their trainer. To me, that's a sign that the power dynamic is a bit weird.

So I don't think it should be a crime to use mind hacks but I do wonder what it says about NLP if nested loops have become the holy grail.

How did NLP Connections come about?

My original intention was to crowd-source my education. I knew I couldn't go on every training course with every trainer so I wanted to utilise crowd theory. My idea was to get thousands of people together and learn from the interactions. I set up the site so anyone could ask questions and anyone could answer. It became a success very quickly and grew into a huge resource. I learnt a lot, not only from the articles but mostly from the connections I made there. I met Eric Robbie through the site, for instance. For a time it was the hottest meeting place for NLPers and I got a huge amount from us sharing our experiences together. I also made some really good friends.

The trouble was it became really popular at the same time as I was moving away from NLP. I'd learnt what I wanted to learn and I started to get cynical about all the hype. Some people run websites for money or to be influential in the field but that was never interesting to me. I didn't want to be known as an NLP person. For a while I was quite angry and bitter about the way NLP was heading and how I saw some trainers treating their students. Then I got over that.

Richard Bandler says he loves to teach NLP but he doesn't like having lunch with NLPers. That's a generalisation and a joke but I think it points to something that's true in my experience. NLP tends to attract quite a few people who I find challenging to be around. That's partly due to the nature of what NLP has become. If people are drawn to a quick and easy way of improving themselves, that often means they aren't comfortable with how they are right now and they don't want to look into it very deeply. That affects how they show up in the world. I think some personalities are also more comfortable as detached observers of life, rather than participants, and NLP attracts a lot of personalities like that too. If you know the enneagram, I'm thinking about people who express their personality through Style 5. It can be easier for us to give advice than share our experience. If you look at the history of NLP, it's rare for collaborations to last for long and I think that's part of the reason. So it's more complicated than that and I don't want to get lost in the generalisation, and of course I have lots of friends who have been through NLP, and some who are still involved, but as a pattern it makes sense to me that groups of NLPers tend to argue a lot and that can get boring pretty quick. That's why I gradually stopped using the site myself and it's winding down now. Also, Facebook is a better option now. We launched NLP Connections before Facebook was available in the UK. Social networking wasn't a thing then. I'm comfortable that Facebook does a better job at connecting people and people are shifting from NLP Connections to the NLP page on Facebook.

Do you think NLP training is too expensive?

It's only too expensive if you're not getting fair value in return. I once paid Richard $10,000 for two hours of teaching and that was worth it for me. I did that because I'd never seen Richard teach something in one short session and I wanted to see him do that. Usually his trainings are spread over several days and it's harder to keep track of what he's doing. So I wanted to see him open and close something in one short session and I made it work by inviting 250 people to an evening event and I charged enough that Richard could have his $10,000, I made a similar amount myself, and I got to see Richard do the two-hour set.

You can be creative and get what you want without spending money. I didn't pay much for my training, even though I did a lot.

What are you exploring these days?

I'm really happy these days and I absolutely love my life. That's relatively new for me! I'm fortunate to be making a good living by having the kind of conversations I love and I'm very grateful for that. My biggest lesson has been to keep it real and be honest and vulnerable in my work. So much of NLP is about excellence and being the best. When I thought I had to be perfect, that was such a burden. I can only be the best I can be and often that's about being honest about myself. I never thought it was ok to be me and many of my experiences with NLP reinforced that because my teachers were constantly telling me I could swish and jump my way to a better version of me. The self-improvement industry is almost tyrannical sometimes. I realised a while ago that I'm ok as I am and I'm deepening that sense as I go forward. Robert Holden says that no amount of self-improvement can make up for any lack of self-acceptance, and I love that. We don't need to change things just because we can. After so much change, that's a liberating thing to realise.

Would you still advise people to train in NLP or Neuro Linguistic Programming?

I think Leonardo Da Vinci said that the greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions. I'm in the process of realising more and more that I can be most useful to other people when I'm fully present with them and free of my opinions, appreciating the wisdom behind their own thinking. My experiences might be useful sometimes but people will always get more from clarifying their own thinking. The coaching conversations I have now are really about that. So I do slip into giving advice sometimes but right now I'm remembering not to get in people's way. I'll happily explore the question with anyone who is thinking of doing some training and we can go deeper into what is true for them. What's true for them is going to be more useful than what's true for me.

What is the next step for you?

To continue in that direction, to keep seeing more clearly. I recently heard Brené Brown share the original definition of the word courage: to tell the truth of who you are with a whole heart. I think that's beautiful, don't you? I didn't know before how lovely it is to experience the world with the clarity I am experiencing now, rather than filtering everything through the roles we play and the masks we wear to hide our vulnerability. That's still quite new for me and I want to keep going in that direction. I don't think there's a next step or destination, only a direction to keep going. The more I'm comfortable being me, the easier life is - and my coaching and group events are so much more powerful now too. I never thought it could be this simple. Often we get caught up in the game of "who has the sexiest finger?" before we realise that most good teachers are pointing in the same direction. That's why I like that line from TS Elliot. We keep coming back to the same place and renewing what we already knew. I'm still learning afresh what I thought I learnt years ago, and it feels great.

 

My favourite definition of Namaste:

I honour the place in you where the entire universe resides. I honour the place in you of love, of light, of truth and of peace. When you are in that place in you and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.